Talk:Trill/archive
The question of Federation membership I have seen no canon information leading to the solid conclusion that the Trill are Federation members. - Dice :Agreed, all we know for certain is Trill sometimes join starfleet, however, so did Nog and the Ferengi are clearly not members. Tyrant 13:50, 21 Jan 2005 (CET) Curzon Dax was a'' Federation ambassador to the Klingon Empire in the 23rd Century. In order for him to '''represent the Federation' -- he must therefore belong to a race that is a member of the Federation -- the Trill. One reason would be because he would have to have the Federations best interests in mind. The exceptions to this rule, of course, are K'Ehleyr and Worf, whom were both raised by or were part human(s), and therefore raised by the Federation. There is no evidence that Curzon was raised by or part anything other than Trill. --Gvsualan 19:41, 21 Jan 2005 (CET) Whether this is sufficient or not to say Trill is member world, this is an awful continuity problem. Trill have been known to mankind for one century at least, and closely enough to have one guy working as a Federation ambassador, and yet, nobody aboard the Ent-d knows about them. Are Starfleet officers illiterate? It would have been much better to just give another species name to DS9 Trills. -Rami Italic text''Several novels have suggested that it was little-known thing about them off-world until that time. Also remember, according to a couple of DS9 episodes, less than 1% of Trill are joined. -rob ''Italic text Ah, I had forgotten that, nice point, excellent speculation. Tyrant 19:47, 21 Jan 2005 (CET)Tyrant To be an ambassador of a political all that is required is citizenship of that group. Curzon may well have been a citizen of the Federation, but that does not mean that his people are *Well, on that note. Lacking any clear statement of membership from one of the series, it would seem highly likely that Trill is a member world, but not known and therefore not canon. Tyrant 22:43, 13 Mar 2005 (GMT)Tyrant * Worf was the federation ambassador to Kronos, which we all know is not a federation planet. This is not evidence enough. I just cannot beleive that none of the crew of the ent-d would have heard of a trill if they were federation members - there are only about 150. Although a case can be made that an ambassador must be culturally from the planet and race he represents, in the spirit of Star Trek's message of social and racial equality I'm not sure there is a strict rule about this. I don't believe there is one human Ambassador who represents humans or the Federation or one Vulcan ambassador who represents all of Vulcan. Sarek was clearly the Vulcan ambassador to the Federation. But as we have now, there are numerous ambassadors from different countries who administer to other countries and territories. I'm not sure that in star trek, race would be a priority to represent a particular culture. Picard is often chosen to mediate disputes based on his diplomatic skills and his stature in Starfleet, not his race. Therefore, if the ambassador is a well-traveled and capable diplomat, I don't see why there couldn't be a Tellerite Federation ambassador to Trill or a Trill Federation ambassador to Klingon who is later posted somewhere else. I don't think ambassadorships are definitive in scope nor is there a shortage of them. * Please sign your posts with the 4 ~. Also, while it is true that Worf, member of a non-Federation species, was a Federation ambassador, and that both he and Nog joined Starfleet without being from a member species, it seems unlikely that the Trill are anything but members. Not only do we have Odan and Dax serving as Ambassadors for the Federation but we have seen multiple Trill in Starfleet. That level of integration into Federation politics and security would seem highly unlikely if they weren't members. Nog and Worf were exceptions, the only such exceptions for their species. Bajorans are another example. Even though Bajor was not a Federation member we saw various Bajorans in Starfleet. However, rather than being an argument against Trill membership the fact that it was clearly mentioned that Bajor was being groomed for entry into the UFP seems to indicate that such a widespread integration was really only possible for current or likely members as it would be a policy of the UFP to encourage future members to become involved at all levels. Logan 5 15:33, 15 Jul 2005 (UTC) ** Bajorans are a very poor example to work from: Given that Bajor was occupied by Cardassia for fifty years and a large number of natives fled the planet it's likely that most of the Bajorans we see in Starfleet are second-generation emigrants to Federation planets---hence, citizens. However, this does offer an explanation for why we see so many Trill in Starfleet: many could simply have been born on Federation member-worlds, as it seems that Trilll are well-traveled. 70.29.254.77 13:50, 13 May 2006 (UTC) *** I'm not so sure that second-generation emigrants would automatically be considered citizens. This is the way citizenship works in the United States, and it is called jus soli (Latin for "right of soil"); there is also jus sanguinis ("right of blood") which is citizenship based on parentage and NOT birthplace. For example, someone born in Austria is not automatically an Austrian citizen; his or her parents must already be Austrian citizens. See Wikipedia for more on jus soli and jus sanguinis. -Etoile 22:16, 1 August 2006 (UTC) * There is a good fight to be made on either side, however, we still have no reference and are therefore only guessing. Jaf 02:57, 19 Jul 2005 (UTC)Jaf * Note also that the trill scientist working on votexes was allowed to use the defiant. This points toward till being a member of UFP : i doubt starfleet would lent the Defiant to a foreign power, even a ally. --Rami Perhaps the solution is a small note under the first paragraph saying something like, :The Trill are mostlikely members of the Federation for this this and this reason. Jaf 03:09, 12 Sep 2005 (UTC)Jaf *After giving this some thought: In a reality where a non-human is the presidant of Earth, it would seem that people are judged as individuals and not on race. An individual may be a member of the Federation without their homeworld or the rest of their species being members. And it seems likely that when dealing with individual dimplomats and scientists, the Federation would allow certain jobs and freedoms to individuals and not species, based on who they are and not what they are. Therefore, a non-Federation member (individual) might still get to fly a ship or work on peace talks without that saying anything about their politics or the politics of their species. In conclusion I see no reason to conclude that the Trill are members as a whole or that their planet is. (This is not to say that they are not, just that we really can't know at this point) Jaf 03:13, 30 Sep 2005 (UTC)Jaf **I really think that "most likely" is a better solution. We've seen too many Trill in Starfleet for me to think otherwise. Despite the egalitarian nature of the Federation it's been established that Starfleet is not nearly so accomodating and that you are either a member species or need special circumstances. And it's hard to think of special circumstances to cover that many Trill. Logan 5 03:30, 30 Sep 2005 (UTC) ***Since Beverly Crusher had no prior knowledge about Trills I'm inclined to believe Jaf's point, that Trill haven't (yet) joined the Federation but individuals have applied to Starfleet, like Nog or Worf, on the recommendation of a Starfleet officer above the rank of captain. However, the number of Trills we've seen would suggest that their planet has applied for membership (or will soon). As for Federation Ambassadors, like Curzon Dax, I haven't heard of anything that would preclude someone representing the Federation unless they lacked the skills and qualifications. Dax knew Dr. McCoy in the 23rd century. It's possible, and likely, that McCoy was completely unaware of a Trill's symbiotic nature. Dax may have been an early (or only) Trill to make contact with humans. ****Hardly, Emony Dax was judging a gymnastic competition and this was before McCoy had joined Starfleet Medical (or while he was still attending) so was most likely on Earth (and in fact was in the Lives of Dax book, which I know isn't canon but still). Regardless if she was a judge she had probably been well known in the interstellar gymnastics community well before then. My personal theory is that Dax had assumed the Trill on the Ent-D were a different species of Trill (they did afterall, look nothing like other historical Trill, Curzon and Joran both had spots so it's not a "recent mutation" it's more likely that the funny forehead Trill are a sub-species of Trill and so she was just startled.) Also remember that no Starfleet doctor could possibly be trained in every culture's physiology. McCoy barely understood Vulcan physiology and Vulcans were the first species to come into contact with Earth (and had been in such contact over 100 years). Curzon's existence as Federation Ambassador to Qo'Nos (DS9: "You Are Cordially Invited...") makes it extremely likely that they are in fact Federation members, joining probably before the mid 24th century (Curzons approximate lifetime). There are over 150 members of the UFP, to count the Trill out when the evidence for them as members thus established far outweighs the evidence against - seems silly. Cory 08 Dec 2005, 1450 EST :A little detail : In DS9 "Trials and Tribble-ations" dax, sisko, o'brien and bashir disguise themselves so they can remain unnoticed in the 23rd century starbase. :And dax masks her trills spots - this mayindicates that trill are not usual in starfleet at this time. --Rami ::I'm inclined to think she did so because the Enterprise had a mostly-human crew, so it would be easier for her remain unnoticed as just another crewmember if she appeared human.--69.136.109.189 04:15, 23 April 2006 (UTC) *After giving this some thought: In a reality where a non-human is the presidant of Earth, it would seem that people are judged as individuals and not on race. --------He wasnt the president of earth, he was the president of the federation, whos capital planet was earth. bad argument, it all boils down to cannon has it been said that trill is a member or not? the episode where miles and ezri go to vist her mom i think says that the federation has no influance there but that was the orion sector, however they did use a trill to make contac...ezris mom, i think thats as close as i have seen to a cannon ref.KetracelWhiteJunkie 00:29, 20 February 2006 (UTC) *I found a detail that strongly supports Federation membership: in the episode "Dax" it is stated that Klaestron IV has an extradition treaty with the Federation to extradite a Trill criminal.--This user is not Jesus 06:17, 23 February 2006 (UTC) **I would consider this enough to move Trill's status back to definite Federation member. Cory 06:55, 11 March 2006 (UTC) ** Jadzia Dax need only be a Federation citizen for them to claim that the extradition treated applies, not everyone on her species' home planet. This only suggests that she is a citizen, not necessarily that the planet Trill is a member-world. 70.29.254.77 13:58, 13 May 2006 (UTC) *I feel that the Trill are a member of the Federation for several reasons all taken from the TV episodes. 1. The trill have been known to the UFP since before McCoy was a doctor (Jadzia said that her host of the time had a romantic liason with him and she knew "he would become a doctor because of his hands"). This suggests that the Trill became known to the UFP sometime prior to 2244 and had started to intergrate into the Federation community. 2. The majority of Starfleet was (and still is) human. Spock was initially the first Vulcan in Starfleet (something that was later passed to T'Pol) and was originally suppose to be the only non-human on the original 5 year mission. So when Dax went undercover on the USS Enterprise in Trials and Tribbilations she had to hide her spots. 3. As only 1 out of every 1000 Trill is choosen to be a host, we can assume that this is not covered in Starfleet Medical considering it represents a small propotion of the population (of Trill let alone Starfleet). Medical courses for one species at the moment takes up to five years, imagine the time for 150 species. I would theorise that the course would be structured on most likely encounted species and choose from the following few optional courses. (also crusher referred to the Klingons on treatment when Wolf broke his back suggesting she doesn't know everything about all her crewmates species) 4. Think about the amount of species you would have to know about in Starfleet, I'm sure you couldn't remember all 150 Federation members, their allies, the enemies and anyone you have conducting first contact with, let alone know everything about that species. I don't even know every nation on the planet and there is only 193 UN recognised countries. (Data had encountered 1,754 non-Human races during his tenure with Starfleet. (TNG: "Darmok")) 5. Final piece, when Jadzia is asking the initiate what he would like to do, she suggests Starfleet: if Trill is not a member, he would need a command level Starfleet officer's letter of recommendation (i.e. not her at that time). And as he was an potential host would have little outside contact, Starfleet officers wouldn't give these letters out just to anyone, they would have to know them. So I doubt Jadzia Dax would mention it, unless it was an easy case. And we have seen so many Trill in Stafleet. So in the light of this evidence I would theorise that Trill has been a member since around 2255 - 2285. dlowbridge 04November2006 I'd like to offer another potential possible explanation for discussion (as if there aren't enough already): Trill is not a full Federation member, but is allied to the Federation very closely, in a manner resembling Bajor, or other protectorates. We see several instances of Trill in Starfleet (six, as counted over in Talk:Trill (planet)); however, we also see many instances of Bajorans in Starfleet, despite the fact that we have explicit indication that Bajor is not yet a full-fledged Federation member world, as late as 2375. We also know that the diplomatic relations of the UFP allow for a variety of allied status: we see the Evora seeking protectorate status with the UFP in Insurrection, and we know Bajor and the Klingon Empire's ties to the Federation are quite extensive. It may also be further possible that Trill is perhaps in the process of attaining full membership, and perhaps has been so for an extended period.Ereiid 06:34, 13 December 2006 (UTC) Backwards Did anyone notice, that in Rejoined, the trill symbol on the computer panel is backwords. When ever else we see it (Equilibrium, Prodigal Daughter) it's always the way we all know it. The pictures on the page. I just felt this should be pointed out. (In reality, this might even cause a diplomatic incident, think if a countries flag was upside down at a diplomatic function...) -AJHalliwell 18:24, 7 May 2005 (UTC) Evolution of the (joined) Trill? Is there anything known (or at least some good educated guesses) about the (Co?)-Evolution of these two sentient species? I know about this Progenitor "thing" to explain the abundance of humanoids with similar genetic makeup but then the symbionts on its own on top of that? A quick "genetic engineering" excuse? My guesses would be they are either a degenerated (speaking about physical form) species since these "worms" don't seem to meet the requirements to evolve intelligence on its own and were then deliberately "integrated" – or they first were small parasites which then (in a race with the hosts immune system) evolved smarter and smarter and less parasitic and finally found the connection to the hosts nervous system (maybe facititated by a bacteriaplasmid like DNA exchange), the symbionts as they are now probably just contain brainmatter. ***um, wow, that doesn't make any sense, sorry, I'm confused here, they started out as bacteria, exchanged plasmids with humanoid hosts who were also sentient bacteria? and then they evolved into eukaryotes? pure gibberish, why would they have plasmids?? at all??? ~~what? Heh, well, the type of the early parasite organism doesn't matter that much: My point is that the parasite relationship could have turned into a symbiontic one by an exchange of genetic material, and this could have incorporated genes for a nervoussystem, explaining how they became sentient beings without and abundance of external senses, of course it could just as well have evolved on its own yet then the neuro-symbiosis would become much harder. The nerve cells then gave the parasites an advantage etc. etc. and in the end they found the connection to the hosts brain. Here I just took "plasmid" as the prototype for an exchange of genes, not implying type of cells (is even this much mentioned about alienphysiology?). The host and parasite would be multicellular since that is a requirement that some cells can specialize into nervecells, and in the beginning there might have been thousands of parasites per host competing against each other. And probably even before the neurosymbiosis the parasites/symbions gave some advantage to the host so maybe the hosts also evolved towards their symbionts to improve the synergy. -- 134.76.62.145 00:26, 18 Jul 2005 (UTC) ::Why is this even here? This is pure speculation, and should be moved to Memory Alpha:Reference Desk. The symbiont's have been shown on TV to have intelligence, and sentience. It was also stated in an episode that the two were forced to join by some kind of disaster. Never were they mentioned as parasites (except in an insulting way) - AJHalliwell 01:54, 18 Jul 2005 (UTC) In the TNG Trill episode (The Host, I believe) wasn't Odan unable to be transported, because that would damage the symbiont? Dax has certainly used the transporter plenty of times. : Maybe it's not all trill and just the Odan symbiont hated transporters. Remember, Dax was afraid of heights cause Curzon fell out of a tree once. Maybe a previous Odan was involved in a transporter accident. - AJHalliwell 23:53, 17 Aug 2005 (UTC) speaking of Odan, why don't we have a picture of a TNG trill on this page (not counting the test picture of Dax with the TNG makeup) shouldn't there be one with the trill male and female examples at the top of the page. -ACES HIGH 07:49, 21 November 2006 (UTC) Trill romance I seem to recall in the episode Starship Down that Jadzia's claim that joined Trill are above romance was just a ploy to brush Bashir off. It certainly doesn't jibe with her subsequent behaviour, or with Odan's. We might also consider that perhaps the Trill notion of romance is not associated with the specific approaches that we've seen Julian employ. In fairness, we do eventually see those approaches succeed with Ezri, in support of your idea.Ereiid 06:34, 13 December 2006 (UTC) Symbiont or Symbiot ? Is it possitive that the actual term is indeed "Symbiont"? "Symbiot" would seem more appropriate at least to me. :I believe you mean "symbiote" (with an e), as the term "symbiot" does not exist. ;) In any case, "symbiont" is the more common spelling and that is how it's spelled in all of the articles on M/A (as well as in the Trek scripts), so we will stick with "symbiont". :) --From Andoria with Love 23:12, 17 Aug 2005 (UTC) ::Symbiote is a more scientific term, like those fish that ride on sharks. Symbiont is how it is spelled in all DS9 DVD subtitles I've seen, so I say keep using Symbiont. (although I do think they mean basically the same thing) - AJHalliwell 23:50, 17 Aug 2005 (UTC) :::They do. I checked dictionary.com; the definition for "symbiote" is "see symbiont". :) --From Andoria with Love 01:53, 18 Aug 2005 (UTC) :::From what I have seen, Symbiont appears to be the correct spelling in terms of the Trill on Star Trek. On Stargate SG-1, the word Symbiote is used for the Goa'uld. This sometimes causes mix-ups with Star Trek/Stargate fans. Enzo Aquarius 00:50, 3 Sep 2005 (UTC) ::The traditional Greek "symbiont" is used in Star Trek, while the French "symbiote" is used in Stargate... They are the same word, in different languages. 68.62.92.137 03:45, 6 Jan 2006 (UTC) Link to kriosian/Valtese ? DS9 trills have exactly the same make up than these species (that are in fact the same one). May trills be a valtese/kriosian offroot, like romulan are exiled vulcans? Of course, we never heard than kriosians are a joind species. Mayb a few kriosians accepted to be joined to the symbiont, and leave their planet for trill ? * Actually, they have similar make ups. Facially, their the same, but Kriosian spots don't go down their front to their feet, it goes down to their neck, then around to their back, and the two rows meet at a poitn about half-way down their back. Kamala wore some dresses that showed this in the TNG episode. - AJHalliwell 00:03, 3 Sep 2005 (UTC) ** thanks. --rami Guess for TNG vs DS9 trills Several fan sites discuss the question to know why TNG and Ds9 trill looks so different. I have a personal guess : The name "trill" in fact refer to he species of the symbiot, not the humanoids. These symbiots have somehow developped the capability to be "connected" with two humanoid species, from two different planets. After centuries, both species tend to be refered as "trill" even though it's not a proper name. i recognized this explanation is not suffisant. For instance, when jadzia dies, they absolutely need to transplant dax into a trill. By constrast, Odan's symbiot can live in riker. -- Rami ... Or, and now this is a crazy idea, maybe it's just because the DS9 producers didn't like that look, and maybe every tiny aesthetic difference doesn't always need to be explained. Whenever Trek tries to back explain aesthetic differences we end up with fiascos like that Klingon virus nonsense. -- some guy My guess: The DS9 Trills are the dominant style of Trills, and in these, the symbiont can (and does) form very strong relationship with the Trill and it is more of a partnership; quite ideal. The TNG Trill (like Odan) are simply another group who found that they could also join with these symbionts long ago, so they were also called Trill. However, the relationship here is not as good. The symbiont gains full control and the body is essentially a vessel for the symbiont. Since there isn't as strong of a relationship here, the symbiont can temporarily be transferred to another non-Trill, like what occurred with Riker. Since this joining is not as good as the first, it becomes less and less popular, so much to the point that we hardly ever see the TNG-Trill, even though they are still technically considered Trill. My take, anyway. -[[User:Platypus222|'Platypus Man']] | ''Talk'' 05:24, 25 Dec 2005 (UTC) ~~ I agree with this idea. It might also be that the "spotted" Trills are a species native to the same planet as the Trill Symbionts, and thus the joint relationship is older and better evolved, while the "ridged" or TNG Trills originated on another planet, and came into contact with the Symbionts later, found they could join, but that they could not have as symbiotic a relationship with their symbionts. --Jadza 17:00, 23 May 2006 (UTC) *Well, considering that at least two sentient species evolved on the Trill homeoworld, it seems entirely likely that a third could have. Jaz 09:06, 6 Jan 2006 (UTC) *It does seem possible that the term trill refers to the symbiote, not the humanoid species, given that during the hearing in "Dax," both Sisko and Tandro refer to Jadzia becoming a Trill, meaning she was not already one before she was joined. 69.249.38.60 03:44, 12 February 2006 (UTC) ** I disagree. Only 1 in every 1000 trill are given a symbiot. When referring to the symbiot, it is called that whether joined or unjoined. The humanoids in question have been consistantly reffered to as the Trill, and those without the worm have been called unjoined trill. Also, please join MA. Click the blue link in the top-right corner of the screen and all you have to do is pick a name and a password - you don't even need to give an e-mail if you don't want to. Jaz talk | novels 03:57, 12 February 2006 (UTC) Two different races with similar names and similar biologies. EG: people from Ghana and Guinea might look alike, but they are from two different countries. maybe it was falty genetic engineering LOL!! :Maybe a Trill Augment virus? :P --From Andoria with Love 20:14, 30 March 2006 (UTC) Hmmmm....Jadzia said in the episode with Verad that 1 in 10 trill are chosen to be joined..... Its entirely possible, although, that not all chosen Trill are actually joined... Jaxin Who controls the Trill humanoid? The symbiont or the humanoid? It appears that Jadzia Dax and other humanoid Trill reatian control of their bodies after being implanted with a symbiont. However, Captain Sisko often called her "Old Man", implying that the humanoid Jadzia was being controlled by the symbiont, Dax. The host inherits the memories, abilities, etc. of past hosts, but does the symbiont take control over the humanoid's body? The article Dax (symbiont), states this: "Each joining of Dax with a host created a new, unique individual, but each individual also carried the memories of the previous hosts." Do we have evidence to support this claim? 69.105.1.34 00:59, 2 August 2006 (UTC) :As far as I know, pretty much any Dax-oriented episodes (and a few others) of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine support this claim. :P --From Andoria with Love 02:04, 2 August 2006 (UTC) Or Sisko was just refering to Jadzia as old man because he knew that she had Curzon's memories and Sisko called him that.ACES HIGH 07:46, 21 November 2006 (UTC)